Are they really 'assists'?

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Are they really 'assists'?

Post by swviper on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:39 am

So with my confidence with the wheel building, I finally turned off 'braking line' assist (last one I had on). ...and I'm starting to think maybe it has been more of a crutch. I could/should be doing some comparing of laptimes set previously, but I haven't got there yet...not a lot of play time this week, so any chance I get on, I play and haven't been tweaking/researching....I will pay for this on Thurs I'm sure.

Things 'feel' faster and more fluid tho, and indeed on some tracks, I'm hitting the "Perfect Turn" bonus more than I was before. With it off, I'm actually looking further ahead, instead of directly at the road in front of me, and worrying what colour it is.

Anyways, why make a thread about it? Just wondering if anyone has made this change, and what your thoughts were, or am I just late to the difficulty settings?
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by marmuttlebow on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:57 am

It all depend on how you use it. If you're adhering to it, it may handicap you. If it's just there as a guideline, it's not too bad, it can't really hurt you too much.

It's been stated that the racing line isn't always the fastest line around the track. Hey, if you can drive with no assists at all, kudos to you. I'm not well versed with all the tracks so I do keep the lines on.
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by BiggLou55 on Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:33 am

I have three on... we... sorta...

I am running the full line.... I use it as a loose guide and for timing... I could run with it off, but I choose not to...

I am running in Manual (w/o clutch)... Sorta an assist, but it's more of a choice... I build my tunes with the race clutch and trans and don't always benefit from the clutch. I will use the clutch in lower class and bone stock cars...

I am now running in Normal steering mode with the wheel... this was actually an accidental discovery last night, but the steering is not nearly as twitchy and believe it or not, provides me more meaningful feedback... Once again... Sorta an assist...

The rest I will turn on and off for different reasons... Rivals race in a ZR-1 for example... Wink
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by Markve91 on Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:26 pm

I've had the braking line on since FM3 and I've been trying to ween myself off of it in FM4. It does feel a little more immersive, and it definitely takes ton of concentration, but I agree when I successfully run a lap without it off I feel more accomplished and stuff lol. I remember the first time I jumped into a lobby and didnt know they forced off the racing line...I smashed into everyone on the first turn lol, I immediately left the lobby and felt like an idiot.

Anyway back on topic, for me it is an assist. I use it to first to get a feel for the car, then when my tires are up to temp and Im used to the car, I'll start going off the line a little to see where I can ignore the color of the line. Like on maple valley for instance...The last turn onto the straight, the line is fully red, in my little renault I'll come off the line a little to the left them chuck it in flat out no problem...So it is an assist in the sense that it helps me dial in my own line.

EDIT: I've also got steering on normal too. with the wheel on simulation it was impossible for me to powerslide a car/recover from a loss of traction.
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by marmuttlebow on Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:07 pm

I've got racing line on. And normal steering. The rest are off. Except as alluded to, I had TCS on for the KOTT. Hate that car.

Other than that, I don't adhere to the racing line. It's become a guide.

My problem is I haven't tried to remember where the braking points are (I only know for some of them). For that, I do use the line. The only problem with turning it off is when you have a track like Laguna Seca where people can take out those distance markers. That can throw your braking points of reference off.

One of these days I'll turn it off. One of these days. Dunno when though.
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by swviper on Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:28 pm

I'm with you on the TCS...typically, I try to use it on cars that have it...ie: R18, I will turn it on, use manual w/o clutch, and use the pedals on the wheel. And yeah where it demands it, like the KOTT I turn it on.
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by CASH XRS on Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:10 am

I only had the braking line on for the first few weeks. I felt like I was relying on it TOO much for turning. From that point on I felt like I would remember the track better if I forced myself to memorize at least the general area of braking is. Not using it has helped alot and I know most of the tracks to at least a general knowledge now. Of course I should probably turn it on with some tracks as it would help some of you avoid my hazardous driving at times lol. I prefer everything turned off. In my opinion it's easier with the wheel than the controller though. Hard to work the throttle on the controller as effectively on the wheel and pedals.
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by joekorn on Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:48 pm

Good thoughts, no doubt the more 'assists' you turn off the better you become, and the more fun you end up having. I still run braking line on, mainly so I don't take as many people out online Very Happy I use normal steering and still have ABS on though, I really need to work on getting rid of ABS. I know it wouldn't take long, I managed to switch from full auto to manual w/clutch in about 2 days, but so hard to get rid of the brake mashing that's ingrained in me. Marm has worked with me some, need to hit him up for some more braking sessions. I can't even say how much more fun it is to run full manual though, changed the whole game for me. Anybody who wants to make the switch, just give marm, me or just about any of our guys a shout, would be happy to run some practice sessions.
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by BiggLou55 on Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:28 pm

joekorn wrote:Good thoughts, no doubt the more 'assists' you turn off the better you become, and the more fun you end up having. I still run braking line on, mainly so I don't take as many people out online Very Happy I use normal steering and still have ABS on though, I really need to work on getting rid of ABS. I know it wouldn't take long, I managed to switch from full auto to manual w/clutch in about 2 days, but so hard to get rid of the brake mashing that's ingrained in me. Marm has worked with me some, need to hit him up for some more braking sessions. I can't even say how much more fun it is to run full manual though, changed the whole game for me. Anybody who wants to make the switch, just give marm, me or just about any of our guys a shout, would be happy to run some practice sessions.

On the ABS assist, try tuning your brake pressure to only lock up with a full press of the brakes. That should help you get started.... I've had ABS for some time now and you really can stop MUCH faster and have way more control... Just like SCM and TCM can be replaced with throttle control, shift control and some opposite lock! I'm not ready to turn off the line yet, and I am using manual (w/o clutch). I've been working on using the clutch, but I'm still sucking at downshifts...
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by marmuttlebow on Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:42 pm

To put words into Joe's mouth, I think he's developed the habit of just squeezing the trigger to the max whenever it's braking time. That is a bit of a tough habit to break. While you could do it on your own or practicing, going into the race with nerves and all, you revert back to your tried and true.

Not to mention (and I am guilty of this as well), you leave it on as a "precaution" but inevitably it becomes your crutch.

All those assists handicap your car. Now, I'm not well versed on STC, but it works the same as TCS doesn't it? Basically it restricts the power going to the wheels. (I'm not going into the game physics as I read somewhere that all it's doing is applying the brakes - true or not, dunno). But in the real world, it's reducing what your car is capable of.

And then when you rely on it, you don't improve as a driver because it's always there. My take on it.

Typically I don't run with TCS. One reason I can't drive those Aussie V8's or the DTM cars. I was doing ok at the KOTT, but eventually nerves got the best of me and I'd lose control. I gave up and just used the TCS there.
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by BiggLou55 on Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:52 pm

Traction control use the brakes to limit torque at the drive wheels

Stability control only applies the brakes when it senses the car has broken loose (uses yaw sensors) So... When the car rotates around it's center, the stability control system kicks in and reels the car back in.

So the simple answer is YES.... They both use the brakes.....
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by joekorn on Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:04 pm

[quote="marmuttlebow"]To put words into Joe's mouth, I think he's developed the habit of just squeezing the trigger to the max whenever it's braking time.

Yep, unless it's a fast, sweeping turn I invariably just stand on the brakes, break the back end loose at the apex and then exit. Would force me to take much better lines if I could break that habit. So what do you guys generally set the brake pressure at when driving with ABS off? Know it's different for each car based on weight, DT, etc, etc, but just want to have a starting point.
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by marmuttlebow on Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:09 pm

Really? You're supposed to change it?

LOL

It's always 100% for me.

You sir, need to brake earlier. I think for you, you need to start finding "landmarks" and not look at that line and wait for it to go red. That may train you to not lock 'em up. So your times may suffer a little at the beginning as you find your brake points. Repeated laps will help you remember the course.

To go back to Laguna, (can't remember at the 1st turn), but subsequent turns have those little "pylons" at the side of the track with numbers. When you hit the first one, squeeze the brake a little (just like if you were driving) and gradually slow it down. Then take the turn. If you went in too hot, next time around squeeze a little harder. Just tedious practice.
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by BiggLou55 on Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:19 pm

So... You can set the pressure for each car so that they only lock up with a full pull. You have to spend some time testing, but it may be worth it for you... What I do is ballance the breaks between the front and rear of the car so they lock at the same time. This way if and when I give them too much, I don't lose my line and can back off a bit....

What I did to break the habit was to keep ABS on, but work on breaking pressure so that I could break before ABS kicked in. Remember, ABS only kicks in once the brake DO lock, so by using ABS as a tool to teach you proper pressure works well. At least it did for me! Wink

Send me one of your tunes and I will set the pressure for you so that they only lock once full breaking is applied with tires at temp. Remember, you get better breaking when the tires are at race temp... Very Happy
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by CASH XRS on Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:20 pm

marmuttlebow wrote:Really? You're supposed to change it?

LOL

It's always 100% for me.

You sir, need to brake earlier. I think for you, you need to start finding "landmarks" and not look at that line and wait for it to go red. That may train you to not lock 'em up. So your times may suffer a little at the beginning as you find your brake points. Repeated laps will help you remember the course.

To go back to Laguna, (can't remember at the 1st turn), but subsequent turns have those little "pylons" at the side of the track with numbers. When you hit the first one, squeeze the brake a little (just like if you were driving) and gradually slow it down. Then take the turn. If you went in too hot, next time around squeeze a little harder. Just tedious practice.

Just like anything else, it takes practice. I use the landmark method for the most part. Some turns are obviously much harder than others, but you'll eventually begin to wrap your mind around it.
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by marmuttlebow on Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:24 pm

PAGE 2

As you were...
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by CASH XRS on Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:24 pm

marmuttlebow wrote: PAGE 2

As you were...

Man you really are becoming quite the whore lol.
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by BiggLou55 on Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:26 pm

Doh.... He beat me to it! Your goal is to beat me in top 20 posters today isn't it Marm! Very Happy
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by marmuttlebow on Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:38 pm

How am I doing?

Funny, I got no time at work yet I still manage to post whore.

BAAAAADDDDDD. Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by BiggLou55 on Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:09 pm

Same here LOL.... I've had 4 meetings today and finished entering all of my goals for the year, and still have time to do 20+ posts/day! Very Happy
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by BiggLou55 on Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:10 pm

Oh.... And I am 3 posts ahead today with 19...
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by marmuttlebow on Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:11 pm

Sneaky sneaky with the double posts.

LOL

Somehow I dont' imagine Hotdog envisioned this when he started this forum.

I went on site this morning. So my whoring time was severely compromised today.
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

Post by marmuttlebow on Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:12 pm

And another observation.

I didn't derail this thread either. I just said "page 2" and you and Cash ran with it after.
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Re: Are they really 'assists'?

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