Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

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Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by marmuttlebow on Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:15 pm

By no means am I an authority figure on this.

But if you've been driving auto or manual no clutch, give it a shot with a clutch.

Some hints:
Moving up from auto to manual;
From my personal experience, listen to the engine. When the revs get high, shift. That's about the only guidance I can provide on that. Me, I've got problems driving the hybrids (Chevy Volt for one) and the diesels because the engine noise is either not there, or I can't tell the difference.

Moving to "manual with clutch";
For those with a controller, remap the clutch button to the A button. Therefore, you just need to use your fat thumb to hit A+X or A+B to shift. Works easy peasy.

When racing in sim mode, be cautious and make sure you hit the clutch. Otherwise, you will cause damage to your tranny.
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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by BiggLou55 on Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:34 pm

Since this was directed at "everyone" does that mean we all have to let you win now? IS this part of your grand scheme? Razz

Seriously though... Manual w/clutch (Mw/C) is the way to go, and with a little practice, times will improve. I'm still working on the transition, but I can say it's also helped my tuning as well. How? Well, since I can shift a stock tranny in Mw/C, I don't always upgrade to the 6-speed race tranny now, and allows me to put more go-fast parts on.
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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by Markve91 on Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:31 pm

Yeah if you run manual w/clutch you can save a few PI points by not having to put in a race clutch either Wink

Definitely took me a while to learn to use the A+X/A+B combo to shift, and then learn to blip the throttle while downshifting and getting all the timing right but it definitely will help your laptimes if thats what your after...There's such a huge difference in shift times between manual and manual w/clutch its ridiculous...
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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by ThrowMeAHotdog on Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:34 pm

This is by far the easiest way to take literally seconds off your lap; if you know what your doing of course.

If your moving from auto to manual, watch the RPM needle. You need to keep it in the power band for that car. The power band is the RPM range at which the engine produces the most horse power, and therefore the fastest acceleration. It changes from car to car, but is generaly around the top 33% before the red line. For example if your car red lines at 8000 RPM, you want to stay between around 5000RPM and 8000RPM. If you want to check, somewhere in your tuning options theres a chart showing torque and HP per RPM. The aim is the keep the engine producing as much HP as possible. When down shifting, do it one gear at a time through braking. When the RPM starts getting low, shift. If you drop the gear too low for your speed the wheels can become locked to the engine speed spinning slower than you are travelling. In effect, its the same as locking your brakes. Smoothness is key, as with every aspect of driving.

Switching to manual clutch is much easier. Just swap the hand brake and clutch buttons so you can press both the gear and clutch at the same time. The only thing to be wary of is shifting on bends in high power RWD cars. If you keep on the gas while you shift up the wheel speed will jump and you will break traction. This is very similar to a technique known as “clutch kick” used by drifters to send the car into a slide. The key is to back off the gas for a second so the engine speed matches wheel speed (known as rev matching).

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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by xraydash on Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:30 pm

ThrowMeAHotdog[Admin] wrote:
Switching to manual clutch is much easier. Just swap the hand brake and clutch buttons so you can press both the gear and clutch at the same time. The only thing to be wary of is shifting on bends in high power RWD cars. If you keep on the gas while you shift up the wheel speed will jump and you will break traction. This is very similar to a technique known as “clutch kick” used by drifters to send the car into a slide. The key is to back off the gas for a second so the engine speed matches wheel speed (known as rev matching).
I didn't know this! I accidentally do it every now and then but never knew why it was happening. Now I realize it must be because I'm slightly out of sync while shifting and letting up on the gas.
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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by BiggLou55 on Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:50 pm

That's why you should do a throttle lift when shifting while. the longer you drive a stick in real life the better you get at it. Timing is everything... Wink
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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by xraydash on Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:14 pm

BiggLou55 wrote:That's why you should do a throttle lift when shifting while. the longer you drive a stick in real life the better you get at it. Timing is everything... Wink
I do! Just sometimes I'm out of sync letting up on the throttle and shifting. This was especially true when I was first getting used to the speed wheel a couple of weeks ago. I'd go spinning out on a turn for no apparent reason but now I know why. I thought it was something to do with adjusting to the wheel. I suspect it's because there's a lot more play on that wheel's trigger buttons and I don't let up all the way every now and then.
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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by Wa11y on Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:00 am

This answers my question about the clutch. I guess I'll have to practice with it... I can't get any worse. I'll need lots of practice.
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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by BiggLou55 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:52 am

Wa11y wrote:This answers my question about the clutch. I guess I'll have to practice with it... I can't get any worse. I'll need lots of practice.

It's all good Wally.... Time is the cure... If you need any help or pointers, I'd be happy to run with you in a private lobby... I'm a pretty good driver, I'm just the poster boy for inconsistency! Very Happy
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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by xII CASE IIx on Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:06 pm

Switching the manual buttons to the right analog stick and having the clutch being the right bumper in my opinion is wayyyy better than using A-X and A-B. Its easier to control because you dont have to worry about missing the A button when shifting. If anyone wants to see my button layout and try it for yourself they are: Gas-RT/Brake-LT/Ebrake-LB/Clutch-RB/Steering-Left Analog/Shifting-Right Analog/Look around views-A-B-X/Switch Car view-Y

I find those controls to be the easiest and most efficient once you get them down.
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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by BiggLou55 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:25 pm

xII CASE IIx wrote:Switching the manual buttons to the right analog stick and having the clutch being the right bumper in my opinion is wayyyy better than using A-X and A-B. Its easier to control because you dont have to worry about missing the A button when shifting. If anyone wants to see my button layout and try it for yourself they are: Gas-RT/Brake-LT/Ebrake-LB/Clutch-RB/Steering-Left Analog/Shifting-Right Analog/Look around views-A-B-X/Switch Car view-Y

I find those controls to be the easiest and most efficient once you get them down.

I just need to stop contemplating and start practicing using the clutch on my CSR setup... I've got the bump shifter set up but I never use it. I find that I'm faster using the paddles on manual. Every car I've owned in real life has been a manual (1984 Chevy Cavalier 4-speed, 1992 Saturn SL2 5-speed, 2000 Toyota Celica GT 5-speed - Yes only 3 cars in 20+ years of driving), and using the clutch in-game (even with the gated shift which is not very good) feels very weird and unnatural. Using the bump shifter with the clutch feels much better, but I really only use that when I'm running a BONE stock lower class car with slow shifting auto. I tune for the fastest shift possible. The consistency of the shifts when using manual only, and the ability to properly downshift while braking hard were the deciding factors of not running with the clutch in most scenarios. I see the choice of clutch or no clutch as a personal preference. Both have their merits, and it all depends on what works best for you. Full auto is not a good choice (I ran that for quite some time and ended up hurting me in the long run) unless you are learning how to drive in FM4. The simple fact that you cannot hold a gear is the major reason for not running with automatic. The ability to hold a higher or lower gear is key on most track in certain turns and approaches. If you have turning and braking down and can hold lines, I suggest switching to Manual OR Manual w/clutch. try both, and choose the one that feels the best to you.
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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by swviper on Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:34 pm

I'm using the 'bump' style shifter now as well. I agree, the gated shifter does not 'feel right'....so much so that the handle came off on an upshift to 3rd Suspect

I emailed Fanatec asking how I get this replaced, and they essentially said 'no problem' ...but I like the 'bump shift' now, so not sure there is much point...especially since I anticipate the gated shifter still not being that much improved. I'm debating saving the shipping, and just pickup a G25 shifter on ebay and tie that in.
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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by Markve91 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:45 pm

I ran across a thread on the forza forums this morning...probably wouldve been ideal for us with the CSR to have seen this before last nights race, I'll edit my post again when I find it and all the information you guys need.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/5337192.aspx

^^^ Firmware update for the CSR.

It isnt an official update so we dont really know what's changed but so far we've got the autoclutch feature that the CSR elite had on it originally. What it basically is, is it automatically hits the clutch button for you when you press the paddles. So you can run manual w/clutch with the paddles and not have to worry about the clutch pedal/shifter. I'm not sure if you need to have the clutch mapped to the "A" button, but I have mine mapped to it. I'll be trying this out today...


Last edited by Markve91 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added link)
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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by BiggLou55 on Mon May 14, 2012 3:58 pm

I have recently start favoring Manual again instead of manual w/clutch on my tuned cars. There are two reasons for this. One, the rev matching Manual does on down shifts really helps me get into and set in corners faster. Two, shifting up mid corner can "bark" the tires w/ clutch (no lift shifting) and induce a spin. Manual rev matches up-shifts as well... I'm not concerned about the PI that I could have back with a street or sport clutch. It's usually 1-2 PI points at best. On some of the newer cars, manual is actually a bit faster than MwC.

With that said, I still use MwC drag racing and on "stock" cars....
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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by Vlagra DUH on Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:33 am

I learned about this, and practiced it and got it perfect, and it added 1.3 seconds to ALL my tracks in every car.

One of the best things you can do. Its VERY frustrating and 110% worth all of it.

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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by BiggLou55 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:36 pm

The only time it doesn't really make much of a difference is with cars that already have DSG's. I love the rev matching Manual does on dwnshifts, but when you are looking for a little extra time, it does work. You just have to be careful on downshifts...

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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by Bleacdemon on Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:39 am

Is manual shifting with clutch faster then autoshift? Because if that's the case I should do it too!

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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by beefsupreme42 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:55 am

its faster, but I only use it for slower class rivals events. I'm way too out of control on the track with it... Its actually better to just use manual if you fully upgrade the transmission and the clutch and in cars that are class S and above

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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by BiggLou55 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:27 am

I use both.... But I prefer Manual (auto-clutch in game).... The problem I have with Manual w/clutch is the downshifts... Manual rev matches downshifts for you, which seriously aids in braking (I can out brake most). When using manual w/clutch, there is no rev match (unless you do it yourself) and can cause the rear end to brake loose under braking (even with a very low deceleration setting on the limited slip).

As beef pointed out, I use Manual (auto-clutch) on all of my tuned cars (w/ race clutch and trans). The speed different is negligible under acceleration, but the braking different is quite noticeable...

I've been going back and forth between Manual and Manual w/clutch on the latest rival (once bitten). My times are really not much different between the two. I find I feel faster using manual w/clutch, but I have way more control with manual.... For me, it's a wash. For others, they are faster. It really comes down to preference... One of our fastest members (converge, who is taking a break from the game) uses manual, so using manual w/clutch is not needed to set really fast lap times. It just so happens that the majority of the fastest drivers choose that setting...

I also use a Fanatec wheel and pedals (I use the paddle shifters not the stick), and I have the 737 firmware that includes an auto-clutch function for the paddles. IT's like setting the clutch to A on the controller and mashing A+X and A+B to shift....

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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by OverdrawnCrissy on Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:07 pm

i learnt to use manual w/clutch for the 'oh what a celica' rivals event,would'nt of bagged my hks evo without it Laughing been using it ever since.

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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by FraidKn0t on Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:03 pm

So, bringing this thread back to life... Does anyone know if shifting w/out letting off the throttle when using manual+clutch works like a real-world "power-shift" ... IE in turbo cars, saaayyyyy a wrx or and evo, will this technique keep the boost from dropping during shifts?

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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by Fear740 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:10 pm

FraidKn0t wrote:So, bringing this thread back to life... Does anyone know if shifting w/out letting off the throttle when using manual+clutch works like a real-world "power-shift" ... IE in turbo cars, saaayyyyy a wrx or and evo, will this technique keep the boost from dropping during shifts?

Probably? When I shift in carrer event modes and I'll watch a replay occasionally and it shows me murdering the transmission however whenever im in the middle of racing no problems no grinding ?

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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by FraidKn0t on Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:35 pm

Hmmm, I've never seen any damage done. When using this technique the revs always bounce off the limiter for a split second (just as they do real-world) and from watching the telemetry, the boost only drops a lb or 2 instead of 14. But I'm not sure if this momentary rev bounce is slowing down the shift... or if it does slow down the shift, if the maintained torque (from boost) would still make you quicker.

Probably doesn't make a difference for circuit races, but for drag you never know, that .008 sec might make or break your qualifying spot.

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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by BiggLou55 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:50 pm

FraidKn0t wrote:Probably doesn't make a difference for circuit races, but for drag you never know, that .008 sec might make or break your qualifying spot.

I really does make a difference in drag racing. that is where I always use MwC. On the track though, I use straight up manual. I don't like how MwC downshifts (without rev matching which is something I have yet to find the time to practice). People using MwC on an identical tune will edge me out on acceleration, but I can brake harder and later using the rev-matched downshifts in Manual.

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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

Post by Fear740 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:52 pm

I would like to see Lou use MwC and not rev match going into a turn XD

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Re: Be a Big boy and step up to "manual with clutch"

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