Comparing Tuners tunes

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Post by marmuttlebow on Wed May 09, 2012 9:03 am

So I've had the benefit of running two club member's tunes this week (Lou and Frank).

Firstly, thank you to you both. I would be nowhere without you cats. Please don't take this as me bashing you or trying to embarass you. Just thought I'd shed some light on the different methods you two seem to have.

Now, just a comparison (and I honestly have no idea where the differences are, as I haven't gone that far into detail - one of these days I will develop my own tunes).

Here's what I've found (and I guess this is relative to me - please note that I prefer cars that are a little on the loose side):

Lou's cars seem tighter. Or more prone to understeer. For me, it seems I really have to pay attention to my line. I'm able to get fast times out of them. But I have to be more precise with all my actions. Throttle control isn't a requirement for Lou's tunes. They are pretty sticky. Any deviation from your lines and you lose time. Lou's cars are easy to control but you have to find that perfect line for it to shine. And when you do find that line, shine these tunes do. I've found that I can set a quick lap within 3 or 4 laps. Then I can't match it anymore (attention span issues maybe, or pressing too hard)

Frank's tunes are much looser. I've needed to pay attention to throttle control as the cars can loose the backends easily. The flip side is I can vary my lines and still set consistent times. However, setting a fastest lap in this one takes more concentration as it will break away if you're careless (which I get after running 20+ laps, I apparently have the attention span of a 4yr old). It seems easier to set a fast time with Lou's tunes. I'm able to set faster times with Frank's (we're talking less than 1/2 second. They're that close. It tends to take me time to get a fast time with Frank's tunes.

In summary, Lou's tight, Frank's loose. My driving style leans towards the loose side, so I have an affinity towards Frank's tunes. I however am not complaining about either of them. They have made the cars much better than they are stock. And I truly do appreciate what you guys have done. I can't thank you enough.

I just thought everybody might like to see what the difference is between you two.
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Post by Insanefrank on Wed May 09, 2012 10:48 am

Lou do we want to share some secrets? Wink
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Post by xraydash on Wed May 09, 2012 11:06 am

Interesting analysis. I've driven and been successful with a bunch of Frank's tunes but have only checked out Lou's Pantera. In other words, I don't have enough data to compare. Frank's tunes are grippy but fast and just loose enough to give you some flexibility. Lou's Pantera tune was super easy to drive and I had some difficulty finding a car to beat a time that I set on Mugello with it.

I'm wondering about their methods. Does Lou tune with his wheel? Frank with a controller? Does this even make a difference? I have no problem using my wireless wheel with Frank's tunes.

We are fortunate to have these talented guys in our club. I've driven some others' in the garage that I liked too from SenselessAtom and motorwerks.
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Post by BiggLou55 on Wed May 09, 2012 12:14 pm

I dunno Frank... Should we...? Very Happy

Marm... Your write-up is spot on... Here is the funny thing though... At the moment, I am working on getting my tunes a bit looser and getting great results on increasing turn-in without sacrificing grip (there are a few newer tunes on my SF BTW)... I'm pretty sure that Frank is working on tightening his up with-out loosing the overall forgiveness and ability to drive on the edge.

Road Atlanta is a GREAT track to test on, since it REQUIRES precision in your turns and shift timing. If you turn-in too late or too early, you just blew the corner. Road Atlanta is my new tuning test track for this reason. You actually helped me out letting me know what fast times are through the 1st turn at RAtl). I realized that my tunes were too tight and and needed more turn in while retaining most of the overall stability. With my newer tunes, I've been able to increase turn-in and reduce under-steer or push. The first time I actually noticed this was tuning for INFAMOUS GARAGE. He has a 2003 Fairlady Z (just put it in the garage) that he designed. About two weeks ago I offered to give him two tunes (A-class and S-class) for it. His design doesn't have race or even sport front aero, which made my job more difficult. In the end, I figured out how to remove the front-end "push". Originally the car would never settle in the turns. Now it turns in very well and maintains through the turn. There is a slight push on exit, but that actually is a + on that car. Give it a test drive, and if nothing else, you'll be able to look at INFAMOUS G's great livery!...

Secrets?
Frank is actually my tuning mentor. He and I have spent several hours in party chat tuning and learning. The funny thing is that we come at tuning from two different angles, and I think that has to do with our driving styles. At any rate, we usually end up with similar feeling tunes, but with drastically different tuning set-ups.

If you want more than that, you'll have to have a 1:1 training session with either me or Frank...! Very Happy
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Post by Markve91 on Wed May 09, 2012 12:18 pm

I personally enjoy bouncing around like pacman in I Is Are Ninja's Smart Car but thats a totally different thing altogether Razz

Anywho I too haven't driven enough of both guys' tunes to compare but I have used franks tune for the Autocross event and the hot hatch rivals event and I agree with marm they're a little "wilder" but theyre fast if you can learn to control it.

I enjoy Lou's tunes! Theyre quick and fun to drive, I don't really notice any understeer? But that might be because I'm not pushing it hard enough, but they are very quick and easy tunes to drive. Maybe one day you guys should have a tuning battle/challenge/type of thing. Just for kicks.
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Post by BiggLou55 on Wed May 09, 2012 12:31 pm

xraydash wrote:....I'm wondering about their methods. Does Lou tune with his wheel? Frank with a controller? Does this even make a difference? I have no problem using my wireless wheel with Frank's tunes....

I actually tune with the controller... Once I have a controller tune down and set, I then switch to the wheel and adjust to the wheel and save a completely separate tune...

Does it make a different? YES... To be honest, I didn't always finalize tunes with the controller once getting the wheel... Prior to a few weeks ago, I just slapped base tunes on with controller and then fine tuned with the wheel. This made those great sticky tunes, but there was little margin for error (as Marm pointed out). What is the difference? Precision and feel!!! It's amazing how much precision and feel you have with the FANATEC wheel. You can feel when the front tires lose grip. You can feel when the car settles into a corner. You can feel the bumps and humps.. With all of that feel comes the ability to nail the lines consistently with a grippy tune, but it makes for a frustrating ride with a loose tune... With the controller, You have faster lock to lock turning ability. It's MUCH easier to keep a loose tune under control using the controller. With the faster lock to lock steering movement you have with the controller, you are able to control the rear-end of the car on corner exit. The ability to drive on the edge of insanity with the controller, makes loose tunes and the controllers a perfect match. This is also why Mark still uses the controller. He is WAY more competitive with his controller than with the wheel. Why? He is used to a particular tuning/driving match-up. The tuning match-up when using the wheel is different...


The wireless wheel (I have one BTW) is more like the controller than an actual wheel. you have fast lock to lock and all controls are at your fingers... The differences between the MSWSW and a FF wheel is FEEL! You do get more vibration feel with the MSWSW as opposed to the controller, but it's not even 25% of what you get with the wheel. Imagine a 3 dimensional feedback experience and that is what it is like with the FANATEC.... With that said, tunes for both the controller and the wheel should work really well for the MSWSW, and I suspect that actually grippier tunes would be preferred over looser tunes due to the physical action needed to go lock to lock (270 degrees with a wheel by default in FM4)


Last edited by BiggLou55 on Wed May 09, 2012 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by BiggLou55 on Wed May 09, 2012 12:34 pm

Markve91 wrote:...Maybe one day you guys should have a tuning battle/challenge/type of thing. Just for kicks.

Insane Frank Tuning -vs- Lou-ne Tunes? (thanks for the name Wally... I LOVE IT!!)

That would be fun... But here is the catch... We have to tune the same cars.... That is the only way to get a true comparison!!

I'm game Frank.... are you? We need to chat to set up the event! Very Happy
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Post by marmuttlebow on Wed May 09, 2012 12:37 pm

Markve91 wrote:
I enjoy Lou's tunes! Theyre quick and fun to drive, I don't really notice any understeer? But that might be because I'm not pushing it hard enough, but they are very quick and easy tunes to drive. Maybe one day you guys should have a tuning battle/challenge/type of thing. Just for kicks.

Now there's an idea, a Tuner's challenge. Just a few guys, put it up in the club garage and we run with 'em, split it into multiple heats so everybody gets to drive each car on a track. Should be interesting.

Now, I wasn't saying I didn't enjoy Lou's tunes. I like 'em as well. But it seems it has been much less forgiving. I wonder Lou if perhaps that affects you during the races when comparing your hot lapping. At least it contributes to your racing issues (not meant in a bad way). As I said, I am able to set an LB lap time relatively easy with Lou's tunes. However, subsequent laps after (trying different lines, brake points, etc) results in slower times. Matching that lap time proves rather difficult (I'm not saying I'm a perfect driver). I'm lucky if I manage to get within 2/10th's afterwards.

That has lead me to believe that it's a "finicky" tune. (Please note I'm not trying to belittle the tune, I guess I'm now just getting picky when trying to explain it). You hit everything right and the car flies. You miss one thing and it's all pooched. Of course, once again, this could relate to my driving style/ preference.

While Atlanta requires precision, Lou's tunes takes it literally. You have to be precise in Lou's tune. Frank's is forgiving and allows for variety.

I look forward to more comparisons. I am having fun with it. And that gives me something else to moan and groan about during races. Smile

And Dash, I too love driving Moturwerks cars. Those cars suit me to a tee.
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Post by BiggLou55 on Wed May 09, 2012 12:44 pm

Marm... you are 100% correct on my tunes, and that is something I have been working on the past week or so.... I will send you some more tunes to test that should be much more forgiving but still sticky and precise. What was wrong? Turn-in... not enough of... Status... FIXED...

I have a Mustang MACH1 in the club garage. It's not a "final" tune, but it might surprise some of you... Wink
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Post by BiggLou55 on Wed May 09, 2012 12:46 pm

marmuttlebow wrote:......And Dash, I too love driving Moturwerks cars. Those cars suit me to a tee.

Where are Moturwerks and Senseless? Wince joining back at the beginning of February, I have yet to be in a lobby with them or even see them online?
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Post by marmuttlebow on Wed May 09, 2012 1:55 pm

I haven't seen Motur in a long long long time. He last participated in our monthly races back on stage B or C of Nordschleiffe (sp). I don't think I've ever seen Atom (although I may be wrong on that one).

As for what they're up to, your guess is as good as mine.

The last time I raced motur was, surprisingly at Road Atlanta. I was in the lead, and he took me on the chicane, going up the hill I was catching up. Tried to take him on the inside. I had it (as in I was making the turn...). But coming out, I knew I had to give'r or I was going to lose. Well, I gave. And I slid out into Motur. He still won. I apologized saying "I had to at least try, it was the last lap".

Yeah, I know, dirty racing. I have no defence of my actions.

He said no sweat.

Sorry for the tangent.
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Post by BiggLou55 on Wed May 09, 2012 2:16 pm

that's not dirty.... That's just hard racing... At least Forza style... He still won, and you apologized... Dirty is the intentional contact intended to take out the other guy in order to gain position. Then denying that it was intentional and making up a story that is not supported by the replay... Wink
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Post by marmuttlebow on Wed May 09, 2012 2:28 pm

You sure? I mean I knew if I got on the gas I'd slide out. In all likelihood, I would hit him. The repercussions of such a hit however, I had no idea (in this case, nothing - but last week's race where I hit Southern (and that one was completely unintentional as I didn't know he was there) screwed him over big time).

That's somewhat dirty isn't it? I mean I knew I'd hit him. Therefore, I shouldn't have done it. Yes? No? I don't know. This is one of those gray areas? I'm thinking it's dirty because I knew that I would hit him if I did it. But went for it anyways. It being the last turn and all. Haven't done it since. Although this week, if it comes down to the last lap, last corner, I think I might do it again. And then if it really screwed the other driver I will volunteer to be disqualified/ penalised for my actions.

Note: I think I would only do it at Road Atlanta because the finish line is right there after the turn. Other tracks, like Laguna, I don't think I'd do it on the last turn. The potential for messing the other driver there is too big to chance it.
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Post by BiggLou55 on Wed May 09, 2012 2:36 pm

As we've all pointed out time and time again... We are NOT professional drivers, races, mechanics or automotive engineers. The situation awareness in FM4 is not great (no radar, and no way to look around using a wheel - only back), and it is VERY difficult to know when someone is on your inside or outside when entering a turn. If you didn't know he was there, then it was an accident. We have to take into account that the person we are trying to pass has no idea we are there. If they hit us, then it's more the one trying to pass's fault than the one being passed (if passer presence was unknown to the passee)...

Back to "we are not professionals".... We are not, and therefore will make mistakes, and LOTS of them. We will be overconfident... We will lose concentration... The batteries will die in our controllers... We will lose control in a corner... We will forget to brake... We will miss turn-in and go off and quickly return to the track only to slam into the car that was behind trying to get through.... We will try and make an ill advised pass due to adrenaline... We WILL make contact with other cars on the track... Alll of these things will and DO happen in every race, and HAVE happened to ALL of us... That does not make us dirty, that just makes us armatures who SHOULD be driving virtually rather than on a real track with real cars and REAL money! Very Happy

Just my 2 cents.... Very Happy cheers
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Post by marmuttlebow on Wed May 09, 2012 2:46 pm

One point, I am a Mechanical Engineer and I did work in the Automotive industry ... so ... there's that.

I completely understand your point. And I think it alludes to me and Southern.

However, in this instance, I knew "roughly" where Motur was. I knew of some of the consquences of my actions. I did it anyways. That, to me, makes it dirty. I was going for it. I was gonna win or die trying. As stated, it was the last lap. If it was any other lap, any other corner, I would've let off and fallen in line behind him.

Remember, I was the one doing the passing, he held his line, gave me space, he was being a good driver. I went inside (so off the racing line) and had to figure out how to take that turn. Only if he braked earlier would I have won it cleanly.

I still think because I knew it would happen makes it a dirty move.

Missing key points to your driving line does not make you dirty. Not knowing where the other driver is doesn't necessarily make you dirty. Might make you spatially incompetent, but not dirty. All the examples listed don't mean dirty to me either.
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Post by Insanefrank on Wed May 09, 2012 2:52 pm

Hmm, a tuner challenge yeah I'm in that will be fun. Very Happy

Now I will tell you all some secrets. I tune since forza 4 came out first I tuned with the first versions of Slave Munkeys calculator but my handling was not were I wanted it and I made an decision to tune my cars alone. Every now and then I still use the spreadsheet to point me in a direction, but after that its all about how the cars feels. I tune and drive with the controller.

Lou is right I'm working on it to get my tunes a bit more stable out of the corner and when you hit the gas but I think they will be still loose enough. I also know why my setups were so much loose that came from tuning in the Hood view after my change to Chase-Close view I became to careful to drive my tunes but I think now thanks to my cam change and Lou's tunes I'm very much at the point I can tune all cars to be fast and not too loose (easier handling) but the throttle control will still be needed.
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Post by BiggLou55 on Wed May 09, 2012 2:55 pm

Specifically to your example about you and Motur, I have a question...

Was your intent to take the position even if that meant taking Motur out of the race?

-OR-

Was it you adrenaline pumping and your competitive spirit boiling over making your critical decision making next to impossible( i.e. impulse driving)?

The point of the question? Dirty is marked by the INTENT of the action or actions. If the intent is to further your own position regardless of the other drivers on the track, then you ARE DIRTY! If the action was deliberate and only intended to slow someone down or take them out of contention, then you ARE DIRTY! If the you hear the little engine saying "you can do it, you can do it" in your head and you go for it, that just means you made and impulsive and more often than not STUPID decision on the track, but that does NOT make you dirty...

At least in my book it doesn't.

Cheers! cheers
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Post by marmuttlebow on Wed May 09, 2012 3:04 pm

Hmmm, a bit of both I think?

The intent was to take the position. There was no intent to "take him out". That wasn't what I wanted. Although the bad side says "knock him off line to slow him up". But I knew that in order to take position would mean contact.

By your definition, I say I was dirty there.

My head was saying I was going to lose if I keep it clean and stay inside. There was a "you have a slim chance if you go, but you will hit him" thought as well. And as reported, I went for it.

Overall, I'd like to think I'm not dirty. I will take stupid chances. I will do my best not to affect you with my decisions (as evidenced on Laguna, I took a chance, it didn't pan out - was that one dirty? I think if I called out where I was you would've given me more space, but I was a mute at that point. Thought I'd just pop my face up and say "surprise").
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Post by BiggLou55 on Wed May 09, 2012 3:13 pm

The final qualifier for dirty is remorse... You felt remorse for your actions and owned up to them with an apology. Dirty racers do nothing of the sort, or they are not sincere when they do (and only when their actions are called into question)...

You my friend are not dirty... Maybe a bit dusty, but definitely not dirty!!! Wink Not in my book anyway...
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Post by Markve91 on Wed May 09, 2012 3:17 pm

Technically you cant really "look around" like you could with the right stick on the xbox controller. But if im not mistaken the reb LSB and RSB on the fanatec lets you look left and right. If not then I must be imagining that functionality.
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Post by BiggLou55 on Wed May 09, 2012 3:25 pm

Markve91 wrote:Technically you cant really "look around" like you could with the right stick on the xbox controller. But if im not mistaken the reb LSB and RSB on the fanatec lets you look left and right. If not then I must be imagining that functionality.

I actually have not tried that Mark... I will check later... Even still.... Using those two buttons in a corner is not easy! Wink
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Post by xraydash on Wed May 09, 2012 3:47 pm

marmuttlebow wrote:I don't think I've ever seen Atom (although I may be wrong on that one).
You raced with him at least once as I'm sure you'll remember: The guy was totally loaded! Slurring like crazy and actually just spinning around in circles on Indy for the entire race. He was also rambling on and on about driving F class on Le Mans. It was pretty funny. He's in the UK and it must have been very late for him. Prolly got back from the pub and had the urge to race! Laughing

BiggLou55 wrote:The wireless wheel (I have one BTW) is more like the controller than an actual wheel.
For me the big difference between the two is in turning, which you can do so much more smoothly with the wireless wheel. With the controller on those sweeping turns you have to do that jerky back and forth motion with the stick (at least I do) and I was just wondering if tuning with one or the other had any effect on what the driver uses in those instances.
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Post by marmuttlebow on Wed May 09, 2012 3:55 pm

THAT WAS HIM?!??!?!!?!

LOL, ok, now I remember. F class, something about fish or swedish fish or swedish berries. Now I know who it is. Yeah, haven't seen him since that one night.
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Post by BiggLou55 on Wed May 09, 2012 4:25 pm

xraydash wrote:
marmuttlebow wrote:I don't think I've ever seen Atom (although I may be wrong on that one).
You raced with him at least once as I'm sure you'll remember: The guy was totally loaded! Slurring like crazy and actually just spinning around in circles on Indy for the entire race. He was also rambling on and on about driving F class on Le Mans. It was pretty funny. He's in the UK and it must have been very late for him. Prolly got back from the pub and had the urge to race! Laughing

BiggLou55 wrote:The wireless wheel (I have one BTW) is more like the controller than an actual wheel.
For me the big difference between the two is in turning, which you can do so much more smoothly with the wireless wheel. With the controller on those sweeping turns you have to do that jerky back and forth motion with the stick (at least I do) and I was just wondering if tuning with one or the other had any effect on what the driver uses in those instances.

LOL... I'm sorry I missed that lobby!!!! Very Happy

As for the wheel, It does make a difference in the sweepers... With a wheel, the grippier tunes are faster, but the same tune with a controller will scrub speed due to the twitchy nature of the controller.... On the flip side, a looser tune is harder to control with the wheel since it takes longer to go lock-to-lock. You have to put in LOTS of practice when using a loose tune on the wheel in order to anticipate and begin to provide opposite lock before the back-end moves out...
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Post by marmuttlebow on Wed May 09, 2012 4:42 pm

He was a RIOT. I enjoyed his personality for a spell.

Had a hard time understanding him at times.

I remember now. I moaned how I couldn't control the car and blamed the car for me being slow. And he came up with an F Class car will beat anybody or something to that effect. Dude was straight up bananas.

He was the second inebriated club member I raced with. The other one was only buzzed. I can't remember who it was though. He was waiting for his wife or something and while waiting he just kept drinking.

Now in those instances, if they raced dirty, well, it was excusable. Smile
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