Re: Quick Question Thread

by Fischs3 Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:11 pm

Swviper, here is the link to the tutorial that I am talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by7JDh-5Y1g&feature=youtu.be&hd=1

He talks about the Analysis Toolpack around 10 minutes into the video

Lou - I am using Excel for Mac 2011

Marm - I used to use a PC until Vista happened. Now I do not even have a PC in my house. I actually was going to buy a Playstation before Xbox based solely on how much aggravation Microsoft put me through with Vista. I know that Windows 7 is much better now but Microsoft lost me to Apple/Mac probably for good.

by **BiggLou55** Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:15 pm

Here ya go!!!

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/mac/forum/macoffice2011-macexcel/what-happened-to-the-data-analysis-toolpak-or/740ff33a-6ed9-4553-bc09-5cef06ce5f23

Solver was added to Office for Mac 2011 in the Service Pack 1 update. You can download and install Office for Mac 2011’s Service Pack 1 by clicking on the link below:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyID=EF1E612F-D8E3-4628-9FE4-AD136F0DEBD3&displaylang=en

After you install Service Pack 1, follow these steps to start Solver:
1.Start Excel.
2.Click Tools, and then select Add-Ins.
3.Click to select the check box for Solver.Xlam.
4.Click OK.

The Data Analysis Toolpak was removed in Office for Mac 2008. However, the following is a free third-party tool that offers similar functionality:

StatPlus:mac LE: http://www.analystsoft.com/en/products/statplusmacle/

The third-party products that this thread discusses are manufactured by companies that are independent of Microsoft. Microsoft makes no warranty, implied or otherwise, regarding the performance or reliability of these products.

Microsoft provides third-party contact information to help you find technical support. This contact information may change without notice. Microsoft does not guarantee the accuracy of this third-party contact information.

by Fischs3 Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:21 pm

Perfect, thx Lou, downloading it right now. Does it include the patch, 'How to tune your car to race like Converge???'

by **BiggLou55** Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:26 pm

Fischs3 wrote:Perfect, thx Lou, downloading it right now. Does it include the patch, 'How to tune your car to race like Converge???'

No... For that you need to read THIS!!!

by Fischs3 Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:32 pm

LOL, that might work.

by **BiggLou55** Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:41 pm

PAGE 3

Fischs3 wrote:LOL, that might work.

Or we just need to figure out how to deploy THIS on the last lap...

by CASH XRS Thu May 10, 2012 10:51 am

Ok here's something for you guys. Working on a shoebox Nova for Maple Valley. This is mainly an ARB question, but anything else that may help adjust it. Certain turns the car pushes bad but does a pretty decent job. But on the longer sweepers (Turn 1 and the uphill to the right turn before the infamous S turn) it gets to a certain speed but then the rear end starts to slide out. I know there are thresholds for everything, but I feel like there is much more speed in the car. I am still confused on how to adjust the ARBs in situations, when to stiffen or soften rear and/or front???

Note: I have the tire pressures and temps pretty good. The inners are hotter than the middle which is hotter than the outters. All within 10dF. So I am happy that I understand the camber at least for that part.

by **BiggLou55** Thu May 10, 2012 11:41 am

CASH XRS wrote:Ok here's something for you guys. Working on a shoebox Nova for Maple Valley. This is mainly an ARB question, but anything else that may help adjust it. Certain turns the car pushes bad but does a pretty decent job. But on the longer sweepers (Turn 1 and the uphill to the right turn before the infamous S turn) it gets to a certain speed but then the rear end starts to slide out. I know there are thresholds for everything, but I feel like there is much more speed in the car. I am still confused on how to adjust the ARBs in situations, when to stiffen or soften rear and/or front???

Note: I have the tire pressures and temps pretty good. The inners are hotter than the middle which is hotter than the outters. All within 10dF. So I am happy that I understand the camber at least for that part.

You want to adjust the ARB strength and ballance... With the Muscle cars or really any car with RWD and lots of torque and HP, I've found going VERY light ARB in the rear (less that 10.00) and somewhere between 10-5 in the front works well. Take a look at the '70 Camaro Tune I sent you, and you will see what I mean... I am uploading some of my tuning files for you to check out. I will PM you the link once I've uploaded them..

by CASH XRS Thu May 10, 2012 1:41 pm

BiggLou55 wrote:
You want to adjust the ARB strength and ballance... With the Muscle cars or really any car with RWD and lots of torque and HP, I've found going VERY light ARB in the rear (less that 10.00) and somewhere between 10-5 in the front works well. Take a look at the '70 Camaro Tune I sent you, and you will see what I mean... I am uploading some of my tuning files for you to check out. I will PM you the link once I've uploaded them..

Ok cool. I had the Nova set up with I think an 11 in the rear and an 18 in the front. Looks like I need to adjust that some more. What is the correlation again between softening and stiffening as to what it does to the car?

by **BiggLou55** Thu May 10, 2012 2:43 pm

When you lower the car's ride height you are doing two things.... 1. you are lowering the center of gravity 2. you are reducing the suspension travel.

When you lower the center of gravity, the car has less of a tendency to roll it's sprung weight (car weight supported by the springs and shocks)... You also have to look at several factors when talking ARB stiffness. It correlates to several other data points.

The first being Spring stiffness. The stiffer the springs, the less natural roll the body will present.

The second being tire width. The wider the tire, the more natural mechanical grip it has as well as a larger contact patch. The more mechanical grip you have = the more tendency for roll = the stiffer you can make your ARB's.

Then there are the chassis dynamics. There is a lot here. With a stiffer chassis, there is little to no "twist" in the chassis. With a lower center of gravity, there is more side to side movement as opposed to body roll due to less suspension travel and stiffer springs. With wider tires and more mechanical grip, there is less wheel slippage side to side and more of a tendency for the body to roll.

Finally you have the differences between RWD, AWD, FWD, Front-engine, mid-engine and rear-engine. They all create different chassis dynamics and weight transfer. Take Front Engine RWD for example (the true sports car configuration!).... allowing the rear end to roll more than the front aids in increasing mechanical grip on corner exit... making the front end stiffer than the rear, aid is keeping the front wheels planted when turning-in and under acceleration on corner exit...

My suggestion... Pick a car and play with the tune.... Very Happy

The sample files I linked you to contain the ZR-1 I through together in 15 minutes last night. I was intrigued by Joe running one after the series race, and I had to see what I could do with it... Apply the tune and see for yourself! Then start a new SMTC file on the ZR-r and make your own tune... Play around with all of the settings to see what they do.... There is definitely a sweet spot with the ARB's and it the BEST place I've found for tuning handling along with negative camber.

by **xraydash** Sun May 13, 2012 12:19 pm

Like a few of you others, I'm trying to learn how to tune. I sent Lou a request for a general E Class Alfa Romeo Montreal with hopes of comparing his tune to the basic tune I came up with using the ios app. I wanted to see what areas he tweaked and by how much.

I'm actually kinda proud of myself. I mentioned an oversteer problem with the basic tune and I corrected it! I used worm's troubleshooting guide to figure out this was the problem/solution:

worm wrote:* Corner exit oversteer (sudden) - car takes its set then breaks loose.
o Not enough rear suspension travel (too much shock in either bump, rebound, or both).

I played with it and ended up softening both the rear bump and rebound. That did the trick.

I also bought one of the two four-star E class Montreal tunes on the storefront (not the 50k one, as if!) to compare. I could not match or beat my time on Mugello Club, which is the track I used to tune on. So I think I'm headed in the right direction.

Here's my question (and that preamble hardly makes it "quick")- Are the front/rear bump and rebound inversely related? I didn't touch the front and only adjusted the back for each. Would I have gotten the same results making the fronts stiffer and not making the rears as soft? Does it even matter? Sorry if it's a stupid question but I'm trying to wrap my head around this stuff.

by **BiggLou55** Sun May 13, 2012 1:10 pm

xraydash wrote:Here's my question (and that preamble hardly makes it "quick")- Are the front/rear bump and rebound inversely related? I didn't touch the front and only adjusted the back for each. Would I have gotten the same results making the fronts stiffer and not making the rears as soft? Does it even matter? Sorry if it's a stupid question but I'm trying to wrap my head around this stuff.

They are in the respect that they effect each other,but you do not have to adjust the front because you adjusted the rear.... They ac independently of each other, but will change behaviors at the other end...

Bump controls the rate at which the springs compress (movement up)... This controls how quickly the springs is allowed to compress or move the wheel up.
Rebound controls the rate at which the springs return (movement down)... this controls how quickly the spring is allowed to move the wheel down.

You can control smoothness, weight transfer, and chassis response with bump and rebound...

I will say that while the front and rear are semi-linked, the rear bump and rear rebound are for the most part. If you increase rebound, you will need to readjust bump and viceversa.

by CASH XRS Mon May 14, 2012 10:34 am

Thanks for the input Lou and great job xray!! It's a great feeling to adjust and fix the problem you are having. With tuning, you definitely need to take every small victory you achieve!! I finally understood the correlation between tire temps and the inner-outter relationship and how camber can fix it. Now that's the first scenario I look at and then see what needs adjusting and go from there. It's fun, but don't want it to be too time consuming.

by **BiggLou55** Mon May 14, 2012 12:58 pm

Once you get Camber and Toe (if needed) go strait to ARB's.... Most RWD cars like softer ARB's in the rear. Slave Munky's TC spits out horrible Spring rates and ARB settings, but the Bump/rebound seems to be decent to start. Just make sure that you are working in small increments, and also just because you lighten ARB in the rear, doesn't me you have to stiffen the front. What you are doing with the ARB's is allowing the car to "twist" without putting too much weight on any 1 wheel to reduce performance. The stiffer front ARB allows both wheels to stay planted and gripping in the corners. Too much front ARB will give you a push or understeer condition. Too much rear stiffness and the rear end will be skating in every turn. Get it just right and the car will almost drive itself through the turns.

by CASH XRS Mon May 14, 2012 1:19 pm

BiggLou55 wrote:Once you get Camber and Toe (if needed) go strait to ARB's.... Most RWD cars like softer ARB's in the rear. Slave Munky's TC spits out horrible Spring rates and ARB settings, but the Bump/rebound seems to be decent to start. Just make sure that you are working in small increments, and also just because you lighten ARB in the rear, doesn't me you have to stiffen the front. What you are doing with the ARB's is allowing the car to "twist" without putting too much weight on any 1 wheel to reduce performance. The stiffer front ARB allows both wheels to stay planted and gripping in the corners. Too much front ARB will give you a push or understeer condition. Too much rear stiffness and the rear end will be skating in every turn. Get it just right and the car will almost drive itself through the turns.

Yup, the ARBs are my next biggest thing to understand. I feel like if I can get a car dialed in with proper tire pressures, temps and camber settings and then adjust the ARBs as needed, that should provide me a decent enough base tune for myself that I can slowly mess with the other really nitty gritty components such as rebound/stiffness and gearing.

by **BiggLou55** Mon May 14, 2012 2:17 pm

Honestly... I only adjust rebound and bump LAST if needed to effect weight transfer from front-to-back or back-to-front. If a RWD car is still too loose on corner exit, try taking down rear bump .1 at a time or increase front rebound .1 at a time.

I set my Spring Rate using the Xtreme Skills formula and then dial in the multiplier using the suspension telemtry screen. I am looking for no suspension bottom-outs while cornering and braking. Some tracks you have to live with some bottom-outs with surface or elevation transition and rumble strips. Too much spring and you will be rolling A LOT on curbs... Wink

Trans tuning is CRITICAL to getting the balance between quickness (acceleration), speed (top end) and managing shift points. Knowing your max torque RPM is VERY handy FYI!! Wink

by CASH XRS Mon May 14, 2012 2:36 pm

BiggLou55 wrote:Honestly... I only adjust rebound and bump LAST if needed to effect weight transfer from front-to-back or back-to-front. If a RWD car is still too loose on corner exit, try taking down rear bump .1 at a time or increase front rebound .1 at a time.

I set my Spring Rate using the Xtreme Skills formula and then dial in the multiplier using the suspension telemtry screen. I am looking for no suspension bottom-outs while cornering and braking. Some tracks you have to live with some bottom-outs with surface or elevation transition and rumble strips. Too much spring and you will be rolling A LOT on curbs...

Trans tuning is CRITICAL to getting the balance between quickness (acceleration), speed (top end) and managing shift points. Knowing your max torque RPM is VERY handy FYI!!

I gotcha. And I remember hearing that, do you find that in the bench mark?

Also, I saw but wasn't sure if there was a way to tune AS you drive? I know you can hot lap and then adjust and hot lap some more, and that you can use test drive and pause and tune setup and then go back to racing, but is there something you can literally adjust while driving or are these the only two options? Not that I have a problem with either one, I just saw that advanced tuning video and he made it seem like you could do both simultaneously.

by **BiggLou55** Mon May 14, 2012 3:00 pm

Driving and tuning is the testing hot laps (drive-pause-tune-drive)..... That's what I do until I feel like I have it dialed in. It keeps the tire temps up so you get instant "race" results. Once I feel like I have a "final" tune for that track, I save it (while still in drive-pause-tune mode) then restart the session and run at least 4-6 laps. If I'm happy with it, I will repeat the process with the wheel. Very Happy

by CASH XRS Mon May 14, 2012 3:10 pm

BiggLou55 wrote:Driving and tuning is the testing hot laps (drive-pause-tune-drive)..... That's what I do until I feel like I have it dialed in. It keeps the tire temps up so you get instant "race" results. Once I feel like I have a "final" tune for that track, I save it (while still in drive-pause-tune mode) then restart the session and run at least 4-6 laps. If I'm happy with it, I will repeat the process with the wheel.

Gotcha, that's kind of the method I think I'm leaning towards as well. It helps you save a ton of time, especially with tires since they are just a minimal adjustment etc.

by Markve91 Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:20 am

So I raced with the wheel last night in the 22b and I noticed that downshifting while cornering was a big issue because the back end would kick out, it's fine because I just heel toe'd and it helped. My question is how would you tune that out? I'm guessing it's the decel setting set too high?

by beefsupreme42 Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:30 pm

not sure, what I normally do is loosen up the springs a bit and it helps me controll it a bit more, but it doesn't actually fix it.

by **ThrowMeAHotdog** Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:02 am

I don't know if anyone else has seen it, but a drift tuning guide on the FM4 forums says to set the spring weights equally by doing something like

Front Setting:
(Max setting - Min Setting)/100*Front Weight % + Min Setting

Then do the same for the reverse usinging the rear weight. I'm not sure if I've got the formula right, but does anyone know if this works as a starting point for track tuning too?

by beefsupreme42 Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:39 pm

It really depends for track tuning. I probably wouldn't go with that value for it. certain body style families require certain spring rates. for example, muscle cars and GT family cars usually require much stiffer spring rates and ARBs than something like an opel speedster that is very light.

In VVV Worm's tuning thread, he says to use the formula:

(car weight+downforce at that end of the car)/100 x weight% at that end of the car/(ride height at that end of the car x G-force)=spring rate

he also says to multiply those values by 1.5-2.5 after the completion of the equation.

keep in mind that this is just a base tune to go off of. I personally find the spring rates calculated to be too soft, so I just pick a number that feels right. it usually ends up working for me.

by **marmuttlebow** Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:12 pm

What does one do when the car is unsettled under braking?

The car just goes all over the place. Can't trail brake at all.

by **BiggLou55** Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:33 pm

Adjust your braking bias and/or brake force... If it's the rear-end that danced. then you might need to move some of the bias to the rear to add some stability and allow you to gently slide the rear-end around through the turn... If they are touchy (like they go full tilt with a little bit of trigger), reduce your brake pressure by 5%-10% and see if that makes a difference...

I'd start with adjusting the F/R bias, then adjust the pressure once the bias is set... If you go over 5% either way in bias, you might need to increase the pressure....

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